Author Topic: Curious what you think of this...  (Read 3986 times)

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Offline Julie T

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Curious what you think of this...
« on: April 08, 2014, 09:48:47 PM »
On an "all species" parrot forum that I'm on with many members, I have noticed that while the "general" consensus of the group believes in the concept of "positive reinforcement", there is also the school of thought like I mentioned here before we started talking about Barbara Heidenreich... Like if you need the parrot to go in it's cage and it just doesn't want to do it (whether it be for bedtime, or you have to leave the house, etc) some people with many years of experience were saying (in response to someone's post, not mine) that you DO try FIRST with positive reinforcement techniques, BUT if the parrot still refuses to listen when it needs to do something (the lady's post was her parrot didn't want to go in at bed time and would bite), a reply was that "Mr. Towel" would have to come out and force the issue. Several people chimed in to agree. THIS is what I was saying was more common in the past and what I used to hear. That basically, the parrot learns there is a nice easy way to go in, or we can do it the hard way, and that they learn the difference real quick. Now, I do see the downside of this that the parrot reacts "good" most of the time because they don't want the dreaded consequence which would definitely go against Barbara's methods.

Okay, so then... I'm curious what YOU would do in this case - Raven climbing to the top of his tall dome top cage and refusing to step up and lunging out to bite when it's time to go in, and he really has no choice cause you have to leave the house. I'm curious how you would accomplish this ONLY using positive reinforcement? Luckily Raven doesn't stay on top of his cage for long, but I'm thinking what if?


Offline E

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 01:45:23 AM »
I only use positive reinforcement and positive thinking, and it is working. :-)
I make all needs to routines, and they like routines. :-) But I also spoiled them a lot when they do as I want.
Teach Raven to step up on a long branch/perch when he is in good mod. And ALWAYS give him candy when he does. Train him often, so he really like this branch.
This branch is now positive and are working every time you want him to step up.

Parrots are not like other animals, they don't understand punishment, and if you be aggressive when they are they will only get worse.
If you always love them no matter what they do, you will soon find out that they will love you back and trying to be nice back to you.

Offline Julie T

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 07:59:12 PM »
No, never punishment like a dog :shocking: I know that those people who said that stuff know that parrots are different... One of them has worked with mainly larger birds, and has trained birds (for people) and worked in rescue and rehabbing 'personality' dysfunctions in these birds for many years. That's where you hear this... From people who have been training birds for a long time. I've heard it all the time in the past.  :(

Yes! About stick training... Raven's breeder told me he was stick trained with her, as she knew the importance of it. I thought it was rather nice of the breeder to already have the babies stick trained to go home! BUT... He will have none if it here. It's been in the back of my mind a lot (just been lazy to do it) to get him to accept a stick again. I feel I will have to take baby steps now, as if he never learned it. Target training little by little with positive reinforcement. Wish me luck! I agree we need to do this before hormones hit! Thanks JT  :)

I just realized something... Perhaps my stick is too big compared to what she used.

Offline momazon

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 09:32:04 PM »
If you cut the lights and it gets dark, you can approach them and give the step up command, and carry them into a mostly dark room and put them night-night. Our rehomed senegal has stayed out in the dining room a few nights because she is so hostile, she won't step up even in the twilight. Anyway, they can be handled in the dark.  Breeding season is a tough one. Sticks have backfired with us, then the broom becomes an enemy.  I hate it when I cannot sweep without an air attack!!!

Offline Dartman

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 09:53:57 PM »
Well I try to stay positive and keep lurch thinking only good things happen when he's with me but sometimes he does something that is very bad and he gets a negative reaction from me. I don't do a beating but maybe hold him in place a bit while telling him he's been bad.
They don't always have a clue what they've done is bad or why they are in trouble and they forget and move on quickly so have to be careful.
I do know that a few times when he flat out bit because he was upset about something and got in trouble
he learned to be careful and not react the same way again. Other times he nips or bites just being a typical bird, I see no signs of frustration or aggression and he's not flaring after doing it so I figure he was trying to play or say I don't like that and I let it go and we move on or he gets ignored till he calms down. Most times if he sqwaks and nips we just shake him off and he flies away and bird swears at us and we both calm down and move on.
With Nerd if he really got out of hand I'd just grab his beak with my thumb nail and finger so he couldn't clamp down and he realised his weapon was useless and stopped and calmed down.

As far as bed time if he refuses to go in I play with his toys till he runs down to defend them and chase him in with a hat or pillow and he attacks it and goes in blaming the hat
Nerd almost never bit me as he loved and trusted me so we had respect for each other and Lurch is getting there as we slowly come to terms with each other.
Things were different when I got Ferd and Nerd and evrything is always evolving.
I don't think lights out will work with Lurch as he tends to be cage aggressive and on guard for bed time and he'd probably strike out if approached and startled or approached, I could do that with Nerd or Beeper though.
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Offline Julie T

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 11:11:31 PM »
Lights out? Hm, I've never heard of that momazon. It SEEMS like if they can't see well, they'd freak out and thrash instead of complying.

I've never had a problem getting Raven IN yet... Since the bigger problem we're working on now is coming OUT! I'm just thinking ONE OF THESE DAYS he is going to want to stay on top of that cage, which he doesn't do for very long now, but what if he starts liking it? That's where I could see the potential problem.
Now that I've put lots of new 'exciting' toys on the playstand, and knows he only gets his favorite pellets when he comes out, he's doing it a bit more easily now. He has a positive "reason" to come out now :) Apparently just getting to be in my presence wasn't good enough. :shocking:


Offline Julie T

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2014, 11:19:30 PM »
Nerd almost never bit me as he loved and trusted me so we had respect for each other and Lurch is getting there as we slowly come to terms with each other.

I keep wondering if Nerd was REALLY a girl... Small for a Maxi, seemed a bit more even tempered... Not all pet females lay eggs. Not that it even matters of course, but I was just thinking about it.  :dunno:

Offline momazon

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2014, 12:08:22 PM »
I make it mostly dark, like twlight, and talk to her, telling her to step up and approaching slowly.  she also sees me dim the lights, and can sight me, then hear me.  I would not approach silently in the dark, you are correct about the possibility of panic   :yikes:

Offline E

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 12:58:43 PM »
I make it mostly dark, like twlight, and talk to her, telling her to step up and approaching slowly.  she also sees me dim the lights, and can sight me, then hear me. 
I did that with my Meyers parrot that wasn't so tame and it was working fine.
That was the only way to get him in his cage in the beginning. He was very wild when I bought him, and to have him in his cage 24/7 was not an option.

Offline Cetan

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 03:22:25 PM »
Lately Chante will go back in his cage when the lights go mostly out and the TV is turned off. But when he wont cooperate I have to admit that I use bribery, I out a treat he likes like and lamond in his cage and will go in for it

Offline Dartman

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2014, 04:38:53 PM »
Nerd almost never bit me as he loved and trusted me so we had respect for each other and Lurch is getting there as we slowly come to terms with each other.

I keep wondering if Nerd was REALLY a girl... Small for a Maxi, seemed a bit more even tempered... Not all pet females lay eggs. Not that it even matters of course, but I was just thinking about it.  :dunno:
Hard to say but Nerd did do the pionus strut just like the video of Eloy doing exactly the same thing. Nerd had his pissy moments too and I did get bit from time to time but there always seemed to be a reason I could understand.
Hurt, scared, not wanting to come out for the vet, stuff like that.
Lurch sometimes has reasons I haven't figured out yet but he's getting easier to read and more easy going and trusting all the time. He did start out scared and not in the least afraid to bite if he felt the need. Nerd tended to not want to bite unless really pushed from the start, but he'd bite more then Feed would who was bigger and more calm about things.
Nerd was Nerd and there'll never be another no matter what sex he really was. Lurch is different but similar and both had/have quite the attidude and dignity about them.
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Offline Julie T

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2014, 07:34:36 PM »
In the later part of the day when the sun is not too strong, it is pretty dark in here. One thing I don't like about this apartment is it really has a problem getting enough light. I can't wait til we move this year. So it is often 'twilight' and dim in here, but regardless, when Raven wants to stay in, there is no getting him out. He makes it clear!

Offline E

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 01:12:10 AM »
But when he wont cooperate I have to admit that I use bribery, I out a treat he likes like and lamond in his cage and will go in for it
That is my way too. Candy is always working.  :icon_mrgreen:

Offline maxsmom

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 02:26:11 AM »
But when he wont cooperate I have to admit that I use bribery, I out a treat he likes like and lamond in his cage and will go in for it
That is my way too. Candy is always working.  :icon_mrgreen:
same here
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Offline maxsmom

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Re: Curious what you think of this...
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 02:30:41 AM »
In the later part of the day when the sun is not too strong, it is pretty dark in here. One thing I don't like about this apartment is it really has a problem getting enough light. I can't wait til we move this year. So it is often 'twilight' and dim in here, but regardless, when Raven wants to stay in, there is no getting him out. He makes it clear!

Try buying Featherbrite or a similiar bulb and create brighter light in area. See if there is an effect
She flies with her own wings. Oregon State Motto